Banking veteran and President of USAA Federal Savings Bank, Paul Vincent, joins American Banker's Kyle Campbell to look ahead at what the next five years of banking holds. Vincent shares insight on leading a bank that provides financial services to millions of veterans and their families, and reflects on how this year's banking crisis has impacted how he is steering USAA into 2024.
Kyle Campbell
Hello and welcome to Leaders. My name is Kyle Campbell. I'm a reporter with American Banker and joining me today is Paul Vincent, president of USAA Federal Savings Bank, it's a position he's held since February, 2021, and Paul's been with USAA since 2013 and before that he's been 14 years with Capital One. Paul, thank you for talking with me today.
Paul Vincent
Good morning, Kyle. Really excited to be here and look forward to our discussion.
Campbell
As am I. So by way of background, USAA Federal Savings Bank is part of USAA, which is a privately held financial services company that also deals in insurance, investing and financial planning. USAA's members include active duty military personnel, veterans and eligible family members. The bank is based in San Antonio and has more than $200 billion of assets as well as 9 million members. And for the seventh year in a row, it would actually earn the highest score in American Banker's Annual Reputation survey, both among its members and non members as well. So today we're going to discuss how USAA was able to build upon its standing at a time when public sentiment around banks was generally declining thanks to the string of bank failures earlier this year. We'll also talk about Paul's plans for continuing growth in the years ahead and we'll even get into some recent developments in Washington, including proposed changes to debit and credit interchange fees as well as a potential government shutdown next month. But first, let's start with the current environment for banking and hear a little bit about how USAA is handling it. So Paul, obviously the big topic for the past year, year-and-a-half has been rising interest rates. We're starting to see some ramifications from that hearing about potential credit tightening, but we're also hearing about a really robust consumer in the US right now, obviously driving continued economic growth. Where do things stand from your perspective? And I guess where do you see the current cycle for the banking sector right now?
Vincent
Thanks Kyle. Really good question. So if we think back over kind of the cycles we've been through, we've been in about a 14-year cycle with incredibly low rates in a stable low rate environment. And you go back to 2008 when that started, I think you had a crisis at that point in the banking industry and we saw unique behaviors of consumers continuing to pay down their credit card debt and instead having higher default rates in the mortgage space and walking away from their homes, so that they could continue to live day to day off of that credit vehicle. Since then, we've had a pandemic, and I think during that pandemic what we've seen is a massive increase in deposits and a pay down of debt. And that increase in deposits came from both stimulus, but also while we were all at home at a greater frequency, not being out and not spending money, not taking those vacations with the coronavirus.
And so we've seen kind of a unique couple cycles behind us and I do think, to your point, we're now in a higher rate environment, but we're also still have some of those things working their way out of the system. And so, if we think about examples of that, consumers, on average, still have higher deposits even adjusted for inflation than they did pre pandemic. If you think about the supply shortages we have seen in the environment. And then you start to think about additional shifts both driven by inflation but also changes in consumer behavior. And you think about newer generations that are out and value and are spending their time and their money more on life events and concerts versus traditional goods and services. And so, we have all of that changed in the ecosystem at once. But at the same time, we also know people still need their banks. They need it as a place to place their deposits as a place to access liquidity, whether short term or longer term in nature, and they need us to provide advice. And so I think the role of banking probably even more critical and even more crucial than it's been in the past.
Campbell
Got it. So what has that meant for specific banking products? Are there things that you're seeing more of a demand for in the current environment or perhaps less and what's that sort of -- how are you adjusting strategically to some of these recent developments?
Vincent
Well, I think like traditional cycles when you come out and go into a rising rate environment where there's more stress on the consumer, they're looking for rewards products, but they're looking for more of cashback than points. And I think we are in a heavy cashback cycle from a rewards perspective when it comes to credit card. And then you start thinking about the depository institutions, depository products, they're looking for where can they get great value at low or no cost. And so low, no-fee checking products, high rates where they can achieve them for those excess savings. And this is where I think we play really well with kind of a monthly or no annual fee checking product, really low APRs for those that need to borrow. I think that will be important in a kind of more recessionary environment, if we get to a light recession.
And then I think the other aspect is, especially with the younger generations, they are looking for us as banks to be able to tailor our value propositions to their unique needs. And so for us getting to serve the military community and we have just over a million active duty members and just under 5 million veterans out there, how do we tailor our products and services to those unique spaces? And great benefits like the SCRA benefits, where we take down loans to 4% well above and beyond what the regulation requires. We've given more than $60 million back to our members alone there this year. And then things like tailoring the value proposition of our credit cards where when you spend on base you get 5% rewards back versus the more typical one and a half or 2% in the industry. So, how do we all tailor those products and services I think will be increasingly important as well.
Campbell
Yeah, that makes sense. And the interesting dynamic, given that sort of on base sort of market for rewards being a unique aspect for your strategy.
In a rising rate environment, traditionally there's a thought that banks should be able to capture a higher net interest margin with rising rates. Is that, I guess how has USAA approached that? Is that something that you've been able to achieve in this past year and a half or has it been sort of difficult coming off of a long run of historically low rates? What's sort of been your approach to managing that?
Vincent
Well, I don't think any of us would say it's been an easy last year with everything that's happened in Silicon Valley Bank and beyond, but I think the industry has responded well. I think we've generally, probably, come to the top of the rate increases, although we'll continue to monitor that. What that should allow is interest margin expansion for the industry. So as deposit prices come back down, the industry should see additional NIM expansion. I will tell you for us, we've already seen NIM expansion, we've seen it even quarter over quarter. I think we're one of the few banks that's seen that. That comes from working back from our members' needs and the strong loan growth that we've got. And while the housing market has been depressed, the auto demand has been incredibly high both in used and in new. And then we're seeing strong demand for credit card products and kind of daily transaction vehicles. And so we're seeing nice NIM expansion again. I think we sit in a very good space and I expect more of that over the next few years.
Campbell
You mentioned auto as being a place of growth. I guess how have you adjusted your strategy to this current environment for auto lending? Any sort of developments there that you think have helped that become a growth engine for NIM?
Vincent
Yeah, it's constantly changing, Kyle, is the truth. And so with rates as high as they are now, what we're seeing is the captives, the dealers, they're coming in and being even more competitive in terms of trying to keep the inventory moving off their lots. And so we see really competitive captive offers for us. We're continuing to both watch volume but more importantly managed to that margin we talked about a little bit before and the right risk adjusted returns. And so the used vehicle space has been one we're weighing very heavily in and having a lot of success and a lot of that for us is one military member financing or borrowing or buying from another military member. And I think the trust we've built, the digital experiences we have, we are a low cost, low friction vehicle to help support that that auto need.
Campbell
Makes sense. And then quickly on the sort of the housing front, there's been a lot of conversation around the lock-in effect for mortgages, people not wanting to sell their home, they don't want to pay a higher mortgage on the next one. Obviously that's sort of combining with a national shortage of housing. What's that done to the mortgage side of your business and is there any sort of light I guess at the end of the tunnel and view yet or it's still just sort of moving through some darkness at the moment?
Vincent
Well, I think you described it really well, Kyle. I'll just maybe add to your description a little bit. I think you take housing prices, which were extraordinarily high and starting to come down, you take higher rates from an APR when you borrow and that is difficult from a payment perspective. But it's not really just about housing, it's about overall consumer prices. And so they're dealing with the inflationary pressure on daily goods. You pick auto loans, the average auto loan is above $700 now and you've got the average auto price close to $50,000 just under that these days. And so you've got pressure there, pressure from higher insurance premiums. We are certainly seeing the impact on mortgage volumes and seeing that across the board. I do believe that will have to start to release soon. And again, if you pick the consumer, and especially for us, our members and our members, they PCS on average every two to three years. PCs is a permanent change of station, so military deployment. And so there is some force of nature that is going to require people to start to get back into housing, but right now I think all of us see that as one of the challenges in the current environment.
Campbell
Yeah, that's interesting. To that end, when there is that change of station, is that, is it only a shift from a mortgage to a mortgage or are there other sort of housing needs that maybe they're going to a rental instead or is there any sort of opportunity for I guess addressing housing needs in a way other than a mortgage if that's not in the cards given sort of pricing picture?
Vincent
It's a great question and we did see in our own data a lot of wire volume and housing cells kind of the height of the market and so I think folks taking advantage of that excess capital and liquidity in their houses and we saw that volume come in into savings in the bank and have been sitting there and so there's certainly been a population of folks that have moved more to renter from homeowner. I think that that will subside and we will get back in a more traditional cycle as rates start to subside a little bit.
Campbell
Got it, got it. So on the card front, there's a few developments going on in Washington at the moment. Just this week there was a proposal from the Fed to change the cap on interchange fees to actually lower it somewhat substantially and there's potential changes in the offerings for credit cards as well. But, starting on the debit side, what is your reaction when you see the proposal that's out there and what sort of impact do you think that would have on your business and on consumers as well?
Vincent
It is an incredibly active environment in DC right now, Kyle, there's no questioning that. And so if you pick this week on the debit side, yeah, I think you have to start by working back from the consumer and what this will mean to them. And so if you use us as banks and interchange and what it means, we use that interchange revenue to do a couple of things. We use it to ensure the security of our consumers, or members in our case, [their] information. We use it to pay for the rails and the actual volumes and the systems it takes to support those transactions. And then we traditionally use it for rewards. That's kind of gone away in the debit space, which we can talk about when we get to credit in a little bit. But if you look at what happened after the original Reg II and you looked at the deposit space, you would see that before Reg II we had about 60% of banks that had free checking accounts for consumers and post Reg II, that number is down to 20%. By the way, I'm in that 20% today. But, at the end of the day, the more and more that revenue stream is challenged, my job, especially in a member-owned association, is build capital for the association so that we can be there for them during the difficult economic environments, invest in new products, invest in new services, and invest in price to take care of their needs. If this revenue goes away, it means I'll be challenged to put that back into that pricing they deserve and that service they deserve. And so, what it will do ultimately is, lead to even banks like ours questioning can we continue to do that free checking account and being challenged in doing so while building the capital we need to build to take care of ourselves during the more difficult economic times.
I think that same concept applies to credit card, Kyle, and so if we take the conversation there in DC and we make it a bit more detailed, about 75% of customers have some form of rewards cards today and that's from McKinsey. And so they're getting some form of value from the associations or the banks they work with. If you pick us, we give over $700 million of value back to the military community every year those rewards programs. So it is a meaningful source of value and rewards that we give back to that military community. We have great evidence based on what happened on the debit side of what will occur if this legislation goes through. And if you pick the Fed study from 2014, what it showed was that when we took down interchange fees on the debit side, 75% of merchants didn't change their prices and 23% increased their prices. So what we've really done is taken value away from the consumer and we would be challenged to continue to provide that value to the consumer. To provide that value to the consumer, it would require one of a couple things. It would require raising or putting fees on those products. It would require raising APRs to fund rewards or just eliminating rewards in general. And again, that's what you see internationally for the countries that have been through this. So, I worry greatly around who we are taking value from, in my case the military community, and where that value is going.
Campbell
Yeah, no, that makes sense and certainly some concerns that are pretty serious in the sector right now around whether this is actually going to lead to this sort of consumer relief that I think that's been pushed. Do you think there is a more effective way that maybe that goal could be achieved, getting that consumer relief if there is some pressure from merchants or from whomever? Obviously, there's been price pressure from inflation. But yeah, are there some ways that you think that the industry could maybe more effectively deliver some savings to consumers?
Vincent
Well, I think what we owe, Kyle, is choice to the consumer. And so if you pick an organization like ours, I have no reward products that have really low APRs and are a great value for those that are going to need to access liquidity and revolve balances. And so that's a great choice for those members. For those that really are attracted to and like the rewards programs and whether that be travel cards, whether that be cashback cards or other rewards programs, I think we as a banking system owe them that choice. And so my perspective is we need to continue to provide a high degree of choice. We need to continue to guide the consumer to the right product for them, but that choice should stay in their hands
Campbell
Right. Now, on the credit side of things, there's a proposal out there, the credit card competition act that would require issuers to attach their cards to multiple networks including one that's not Visa or MasterCard. I guess can you talk through what that specific change might mean for your products and for the industry broadly?
Vincent
Well, I think essentially Kyle, it's the conversation we just had, which is it will challenge interchange as it exists today. It will reduce those rewards, reduce that benefit we give back to members. And you heard me quote the $700 million we gave back to the military community this year alone. And what it will do is if we want to keep those rewards constructs force more in terms of fees or higher APRs or other means to continue to be able to provide that value but manage the capital of the banks. And so yeah, I think that legislation's extremely challenging in terms of who it will benefit and who it will take away from. And again, in my case, very worried about the implications to the military community we support.
Campbell
Yep. Something else that's another live issue or soon to be, I should say in Washington is the potential for another government shutdown, which we have a mid-November deadline to work with. Now that there is a speaker once again for the House of Representatives. Just wondering, obviously we came up against this earlier in the year, what did USAA do to prepare for that potential shutdown scenario in terms of --- or in that case it would've been the government running out of money --- but what sort of playbook did you put together for that scenario and how are you sort of applying that to what might be coming later this fall?
Vincent:
Well, to your point, it's certainly been a challenging year. We had a potential debt ceiling you referenced and then we had an almost government shutdown, what, four weeks ago, five weeks ago. So we've already been through both of those this year and, to your point, if we don't find a way to solve this by the 17th, we'll be back into another government shutdown situation. So from my perspective, again, I greatly worry about the consequences of the government not finding a way to fund itself. If you pick the military community, we've got two carrier strike forces deployed to the Middle East right now. We've got a great deal of our armed services and armed forces on high alert. The last thing I think we want them worried about is they are deployed or preparing to deploy or out taking care of this great nation is whether or not their spouse or their family is going to be getting their paycheck to continue to take care of living day to day. And I think the military community is like the rest of America where many live paycheck to paycheck. And so we do a bunch of unique things here. I think it's our obligation, our responsibility to do unique things here to support that military community and those range from loan deferrals to fee waivers to insurance deferrals to 0% loans for 90 days so that they can continue to take care of their families of themselves and keep their focus on where it needs to be, which is taking care of their day-to-day responsibilities and taking care of this nation.
Campbell
Got it. Yep. Are there things that, obviously your members are acutely impacted by something, anything related to government funding, but are there things that you think the industry as a whole might be able to do to sort of brace itself for this potential impact for their customers or members who may have similar reliance on government for income?
Vincent
Well, I think industry leaders have done a great job and will continue to do a great job advocating for the implications of this in DC and helping everyone avoid this situation and prevent it. I think if we do run into a shutdown, we've got to ensure it does not come prolonged in nature, especially you think about the timing of when this would occur and based on how government paycheck cycles work, the first real implication would be somewhere late in the month of November and certainly fully scaled by end of November, but you're starting to talk about impacting pay during a time of the holidays when people are traveling. You're talking about furloughs, you're talking about folks working without pay. I think you will start to jeopardize transportation and other things across this country. And so I think we've got to continue to advocate for the solution of this problem in DC and a more sustained solution while we all look for ways to help our customers, or in our case members, for whatever period of duration it occurs.
Campbell
Got it. One last sort of development, somewhat recent development in DC is the launch of a new payment system in FedNow to help facilitate instant payments. Obviously, this is not new that's been in the US for some time with the RTP network, which is sort of a private alternative, and it's also something that is very much available in other countries and has been for a while. I'm just curious what your approach to sort of these faster payments systems has been and if you think this is going to be something that is very impactful for a retail focused bank such as USAA?
Vincent
Well, I'm a huge believer, Kyle, that this is really important and it's an eventuality. So it's more of a ... What USAA is doing is getting our infrastructure, our payment infrastructure ready to support a number of different solutions that both exist and that I think will exist over time and I think those are the important investments we need to be making now. Yeah, I think early adoption has been more on the commercial space rather than the consumer space and that your question indicated you were leading that way anyway. I think on the consumer space, I think we're going to have to test in carefully. And I think there is a lot of benefit to the consumer and there's ways they can get that benefit today through Zelle solutions and other capabilities that are out there. But this is also one where fraud is rampant across the banks today. The consumers are being targeted and those schemes, those folks with ill intent are acting with a lot of rigor and a lot of scale and consumers are giving up their credentials, their logins, they're moving money. And so that movement of money becoming faster than it is today, I do believe increases the risk of fraud and makes it more challenging to recover when fraud does exist. So I think we will need to test and learn into this carefully as an industry to manage the risk broadly and I'm confident the right folks are thinking through that and working on that as we speak.
Campbell
Yeah, makes sense. Getting back to something we touched on briefly, which is the sort of crisis moment earlier this year in the banking sector. Obviously it kind of shook the confidence among some consumers in their bank and in banks more broadly. Obviously, based on our findings, USAA did not have that problem. Actually reputationally it did better this past year in the midst of all that. What do you sort of attribute that to and are there lessons that you learned in that episode that you think could maybe be applicable to the banking sector more broadly?
Vincent
It's a great question again, Kyle. The one I think the banking sector as a whole is in a really good place and I think especially as you look at the larger institutions, those of us over a hundred billion [dollars] in assets, we are stress tested rigorously. We do that to ourselves, we do it at a high frequency. The sector as a whole is in a very good place. USAA, also in a great place. I think we are really well positioned and fortunate both in our consumer base of our deposits. And so 94% of our deposits are FDIC-insured. They're all consumer deposits in nature. We've got great trust with our membership and we have great capital and liquidity to manage through any number of events that can occur, and I think we've proven our ability to do that incredibly well.
(
In terms of what we've all learned and what we all continue to learn, and I would be the last person to kind of share best practice with the industry, I think my peers are doing this and we're all very focused on it, is just these stress tests, if you look back far enough in time, were often analytical exercise and many times farfetched in nature. The truth is we're in a highly volatile environment these days and external to our walls just so the world, the country we live in, there is a lot of volatility. And so I think stress tests are honestly required and in some ways manifesting each year. And so it's less about a test and an analytical exercise and more about what do you learn from those exercises, how does that change how you're going to manage the business each year? How are you testing yourself on a continuous basis, not just in terms of the analytic exercise, but in terms of the actual production environment, what you would do, making sure all of those mechanisms work. And again, I feel really good about where we sit there. I feel really good about where the large banks sit there. I think we continue to practice in the way I just described.
Campbell
Got it. You touched on your ability to capture some NIM growth this year despite some of the broader challenges. I guess your view on how the sector as a whole might be able to do that more effectively, is that something that is you think going to happen over time or do some shifts need to happen in order for the banking sector to sort of remain in this strong position that it's in as rates not only potentially tick up a bit more but sort of remain high for a while?
Vincent
Well, I think we're all different, Kyle and both in terms of mix of businesses and mix of products and funding sources. And so I don't think there is a one size fits all answer. That said, from a consumer perspective, I continue to believe those that win over time and those that continue to gain share and expand are going to have some combination of compelling value propositions, i.e., whether that's price, whether that's rewards, but a compelling thing that in terms of value brings new customers into the association or the bank and keeps the members of the customers you have. I think to do that, the more digital you are, the lower your cost base is and the more you invest in generative AI or machine learning to get to straight through processing or reduce internal costs, that's more value you can put back in price for the consumer.
I think service matters and I think the definition of service is changing around us. And I think if you pick my bank, 97% of our interactions are digital, the vast majority of those on a mobile device these days. And so how do you take things like the great advice that traditionally has been done in a financial center or in a bank branch or in a phone center and start to provide micro advice through that digital platform and through that mobile device to help build that trust, build that relationship with the consumer. And then I think from a service perspective, finding a way to be there in those moments that matter in those more highly emotive experiences from a branch or in our case a phone center perspective. And we have great highly trained contact center representatives. We call them member service representatives here. And we'll keep building on those skill sets so that they can be there in those moments that matter to deliver that service. That leads to us kind of having some of the differentiation we've been fortunate to have.
Campbell
Got it. We talked about some headwinds in terms of the housing sector, cards. Where are you anticipating growth in the next couple of years? I mean, despite those potential hurdles to get over. Can you still grow in those products or is the growth that you're anticipating going to be coming from elsewhere in the business?
Vincent
Well, what we see right now, Kyle, is if I go back to what I said a minute ago where we've got compelling value propositions, we are growing, we are growing healthy, we're growing sustainably and we're growing share. And so, if I look at the auto loan space again, I think we are seeing a lot of growth there. It's in the right type of assets, the right credit mix of assets, and we're continuing to look at how do we do more for those with less data to fund loans and let them build that credit over time. So we're seeing really strong growth in auto and expect that to continue. Same in credit card again, I think, really healthy growth for some, that is building a credit facility and building credit worthiness and those are low APR credit card products that we provide for those that are newly enlisted or younger and earlier in their life, all the way to really compelling rewards propositions on the other side. And so, those are the two products we see the most growth. I will tell you, I do think the mortgage business has to start to return over time. That will be highly dependent on the rate environment and I do think we're in a period of higher for longer, but we do expect that to start to come back down, whether that's late '24 or '25, we could probably spend a lot of time debating, but I do think the mortgage market will return over the next couple years.
Campbell
Got it. And yeah, as we look to those next few years, could you give us your crystal ball view on where things are headed over the next five years or so? I mean, we don't need exact predictions on interest rates necessarily, but just do you see things being better? Do you see certain challenges maybe becoming more difficult? What's your overall view on the business of banking over the next five years and then USAA's approach to it?
Vincent
Well, Kyle, I don't know if any of our crystal balls have been very accurate over the last few years. And so if you really get down to what drives that, it's probably less about banking and more about the volatility outside of banks. And so, we've talked a good deal in this call about the macroeconomic environment. We've talked a little bit about the geopolitical environment that's occurring and what's occurring in the Middle East right now and the stress that could mean broadly to the system. But I'll go back to what I said earlier, which is I feel good about where banks sit. I feel really good about our capital position and our liquidity as we sit right now. The consumer is still showing a lot of signs of health, but how this plays out will depend heavily around where rates sit, how they continue to trend and how much stress does go back on that end consumer at the end of the day. But again, I feel good about where we're positioned there, the unique membership we get to serve the purpose that comes with that broadly.
Campbell
Got it. We do have one question from the audience, and if others have other questions, I welcome you to submit them now. But someone asked about steps being taken to prevent fraud. Can you maybe discuss some of the initiatives that USAA has to protect members and their accounts from fraudulent activities?
Vincent
Well, it ranges across the board, Kyle, and I think broadly we're all working as a banking industry on consumer education. And so we are constantly launching campaigns to our members to educate them on different fraud tactics and what to avoid and how to stay away from those. So I think consumer education's a big part of this. And again, those with ill intent are aggressively attacking those members through text messages, phone calls, impersonation schemes, trying to take over those accounts or get funds from those accounts. And so that will be a big piece of this. There are more and more consortium solutions out there of fintechs that are coming to bear against fraud and there are some really promising ones that a number of us are using and starting to pilot. And I think they are yielding early successes that we're managing limits very carefully, and that's an everyday balance of managing that limit to protect the consumer, but also letting them access their funds in the way they want to access their funds and when they want to access their funds. And so there's a constant back and forth there. But I do see really good progress and I do see more and more solutions available, but I also think it's going to get increasingly complex as those with Ill intent continue and grow their leverage of generative AI as quantum computing comes online. And I think we as banks are going to have to be leveraging those same capabilities to defend against fraud as they emerge.
Campbell
Got it. We have another question here. This one is about digital banking and the effects that it has had on USAA and if you'd be able to comment on that and how you see digital banking evolving over the next few years.
Vincent
Well, we have always been a digital bank, so I don't know that the effects on USA have been significant, but what I will say is if you look at the pandemic and you look at service and sales trends, it has accelerated digital across the industry and especially from a consumer basis. And whether it's those everyday things you do with your bank and doing that via your mobile device or even acquiring products at this point is more and more digital in nature. And for us that servicing transactions are 97% digital, even acquisition 70%. So, what I do think is we're seeing consumer behavior start to accelerate. The pandemic further accelerated that, but the consumer is also still going to look for all of us as banks to be there and to be able to talk to or sit in front of someone in those emotive, highly emotive moments, those moments that matter. And so they're still going to look for some form of people to talk to on the other side as well. And so the constant balance in investing heavily in that digital, in that future and meeting more and more of the needs there every day is something we work on a lot, but being there when they want to talk to a person on the other side as well.
Campbell
Got it. And one more question around Central Bank digital currencies. Do you have thoughts on the potential use of that technology if it were to come out as a bank? I guess I'm not sure if they're asking necessarily about retail or sort of more wholesale between banks, but if you have thoughts on either category of central bank digital currency, I think that might be interesting for the audience.
Vincent
Well, Kyle, I think it's going to be interesting to watch different competing capabilities that are emerging. And you talked about kind of fed now earlier in real-time payments, digital currencies and maybe blockchain in particular behind them are a way of facilitating payments at a higher pace and different than has been done in the past. And so I think as an industry, we're all testing and learning into which of these makes sense and don't, which ones will win with the consumer. I think in any case that simplicity, that simple user-centered design is going to matter a lot. But I still think we're early into testing and learning into which of these are going to make the most sense, which ones are going to scale and where are we going to place our bets moving forward.
Campbell
Got it. Well, thank you for that, Paul, and thanks for taking all the questions today. I appreciate the insights that you've been able to share and I hope that the audience has as well. And thank you to everyone else who has tuned in today to watch this edition of Leaders. We appreciate it as always, and please feel free if you have additional questions to send them our way and we'll try to get some answers for you if we can. So thank you again so much. Appreciate it.
